Conversation with God
William S. Stoertz
October 2, 1997
(10:02 pm)

WS -- She said, "Are you scared, staying here all by yourself?"
and I said, "Sometimes."

HF -- I liked what you said... They really like what
you taught (talked) about history, ancient history, the
Origins...

WS -- Thank You. Yesterday was Mariya-chan's birthday.

HF -- Today was like her second birthday.

     You can have a new beginning, again.

WS -- I'm sorry, we're always needing new beginnings.

HF -- Seems like it: time and time again.

WS -- Is it true, what I said? About 2.5 million, and 100,000, and
10,000 years ago (Adam and Eve, the new beginning of the human
race and civilization, and Noah)? (Since I had to say something --
some kind of numbers.)

HF -- Yes, approximately.
     Yes, like I said, she was very glad with what you said. It
     gives her hope and inspiration. That's why I (See why I)
     called you.

WS -- Why were Adam and Eve so long ago?

HF -- In a way, I kind of knew what would happen. (...) But I had
to give a chance for the first Providence. I had to give them (the
brutes) a chance. As you can see, they didn't make it. That was
Adam and Eve. Now you see how many were My tears. They filled the
oceans. It "had to happen", and yet it didn't have to happen. See
My situation? It's been like that countless of times.

WS -- Why did Adam and Eve have to be so long ago?

HF -- The situation was ideal for them that time. Not that I
wanted it (to happen). You can see from the stars in the skies,
and the continents. They would have been able to handle it (the
human situation). You see. You can now. It's not that much
different now, in ratio, the proportion. The different kinds of
people. It's all really the same, as the situation Adam and Eve
had at their time. The Principle of Abel and Cain. It keeps on
repeating itself. And Adam and Eve. And there's a resolution which
is more according to My Desire, and one less. The Israelites took
the less. In many instances (cases). You don't need to.

WS -- How about Father? Why Father is so good?

HF -- He saw the whole picture. He knew the truth. And he did it.
He was in a way like a brute too, like Adam. But I took him. See
how I took him? So here we are. At the Foundation Day of the
Nation of the Unified World. Who could have accomplished that?
Nobody but Father. After all the efforts of history, and they all
went wrong. But Father was all right. He is the Messiah.

WS -- Going back to the story as I have presented (about the
origins of humankind and the original course of human history),
how do You like it? What do You find wrong, or what bothers You?

HF -- First of all, don't say "original" in what you just said.
It's not original. The way it went is not the way I wanted. You
have to be more clear about that. That's why Father says "25
million years". To emphasize that. And not to be dominated by
science.
     See, that little caveman, and her mother, could have been
     Masha, and Mama. Why not? You loved her. [The footprints
     found in ash from 3.3 million years ago] So you see what I
     wanted to happen? Not for there to be wars, and betrayal.
     They already had the heart. Where was the heart? From Me. I
     already had the heart. See how they felt? See how I felt. See
     how terrible it is to lose a child? You grieve. They did.
     That much (that part) hasn't changed. That's why I wanted to
     call them humans. They were. They had the heart and the
     spirit.

WS -- How can I find out they had the spirit?

HF -- You're questioning. Okay, go right on ahead. How will you
know? Look into the spirit world. You'll see them.

WS -- Who?

HF -- The original (first) Adam and Eve. There they are. And they
are going to be blessed this time, in the 3.6 million couple
Blessing, on November 29th.

WS -- So where are our ancestors, compared to them?

HF -- More rocky hearted. That's what evolution did. Evolution,
guided by fallen nature. The heartistic people (types) were all
wiped out. Repeatedly. And the cold, calculating types won out. It
was not My Desire.

WS -- And where are we now?

HF -- The Koreans, who are more heartistic, is more what I want.
Even though they are in some sense more brutish, to your
standards. But they're very sharp. See Divine Principle?

WS -- If there were people around, 25 million years ago, what were
they doing?

HF -- Hiding, underneath the surface.

WS -- I assume that means, oneness with God's Heart, although
God's Heart was there, and by turns residing in the people...

HF -- See, now you're mixing up the results of the fall (inaccess
to God's Heart) and the original design (purpose). The original
design was that the people were to live with God. Your standard of
judgment is different. [Thinking about Russians, or cold northern
people, as Father said, and what it did to people, as they lived
in that way.] I didn't want it. See? That's how Father is talking.
Father knows, because he's seen into the (spirit world, night
realms, realms of darkness). And the ideal world.

WS -- How much are "ideal world", "ideal realm", spiritual world,
Sung-Sang, and the physical world different, or mixed up, from
Your viewpoint, as You look at them?

HF -- Not at all. They are not at all mixed up. Why? I made them.
I am very clear about that (them).

WS -- What's what; or, is my conception correct and clear?

HF -- Basically correct.

WS -- Anything wrong?

HF ["Hmmm...", thinking] -- Not that I know... Define them.

WS -- "Ideal world" is the future world which is according to Your
Ideal, which has not yet been realized, but which You have a
concept about in Your Ideal Realm, and Heart.
     "Ideal realm" is in Your Logos, the design or realm of things
     in their ideal or original phase, phase of design, purpose,
     and intent, but not substantial. It is stretched out linearly
     or rectangularly, rather. [HF -- "Who said that?"].
     "Spiritual world" is in the world of substance, of realized
     hyung-sang and sung-sang, but invisible, more subjective, the
     realm of dwelling of substantial spirits.  "Sung-Sang" is the
     realm, both in the physical world, and in the spiritual
     world, and even in the Ideal Realm, of the essences or
     vertical and subjective components of all things. In this
     sense Sung-Sang is relative, as there is a sung-sang of all
     things.  "Physical world" is the world of hyung-sang relative
     to the spiritual world, where the physical components of all
     things are worked out. It is the world based on particles and
     energy. It is most evanescent, or temporal, and quick to
     vanish. This is called the "real world" by some or most
     people, not knowing the reality of the spiritual world.

     How are they hooked up?

HF -- From internal to external, from external to internal.

WS -- Do You care?

HF -- Yes: very much. I'm constrained to live there. Everything
depends on the physical world: what's done there, starting from
Adam and Eve.

WS -- What if I change my charts and records to say "25 million
years ago", as Father said?

HF -- It would be unwarranted, from a scientific point of view.
But just remember that he said that, and what it means.

WS -- ...that Your Spirit already came down here to earth, and was
disappointed by flesh, by their decision, or carelessness.

HF -- Yes. They had a choice. So I have taken a more long time to
teach them. See how much patience I had? So, see that 2.5 million
years ago was not that long ago, from My point of view. Relatively
recent. Rather latecomers, or late in the game. See what I was
trying to do much earlier. [Taking a deep breath] So, see, what I
tried to do, I tried to do much earlier, and I had to wait a much
longer time. That is what you can't realize, if you look at fossil
remains, and try to judge in that way. You won't see clearly what
was really at stake. It is rather the property of matter to be the
dwelling place of spirit, that it didn't have to wait that long to
be realized, and indeed I was working on it much before. Even the
particles have, in a minute sense, the dwelling place of God. But
not in the fullness as, for example, a mature human being. And see
what Father is working on now, at the level of a nation. As yet,
there is none. See, I can talk to you. See what that means? I am
teaching you many new things. See all I taught Father, even though
he was just a farmer.

WS -- What about independent, special creation?

HF -- Independent, special creation? Nonsense. I put that in the
realm of "creatio ex nihilo." Sheer, utter nonsense. You don't
know the Principle. You should know that I don't do things in that
way. Never. You should tell that to the Christians. Everything is
a process, even in ideal time. ["Ideal time" is the mathematical
or sequential time within the Ideal Realm or planning phase, which
is actually (physically) no time at all.] Everything is
relationship, and built upon a foundation. And I proceed from Cain
to Abel, or from external to internal. [This means in the physical
world].

WS -- You let me define things.

HF -- Yes, as long as I can see what you're doing, and it is
consistent, and makes sense (is reasonable).

WS -- Define "reasonable".

HF [some kind of laugh] -- So it goes along with My Inner Sung
Sang. Means My Plan. I have structure, as you know. There is a
lumping of association. I use your language. It means things go
together. Relationship, or association (mathematical relation) is
a very primary or fundamental property of Principled structure.
Without, or beyond, time and space. That is good for spiritual
world, and Ideal Realm, too. Time and space is a highly advanced
entity or structure, depending on the Big Bang. Conceptual time
and space is linear, and infinite.

WS -- Does it curve?

HF -- "You got me!" Does it come back? Yes, it does come back, but
because I am everywhere at once, from that viewpoint. "Straight
lines don't bend." That must be an axiom. But that depends on your
definition. Again, you are measuring, but that, again, is in the
physical world. In the physical world, you will not find straight
lines, and they do come back, and they do bend. The definition is
based on light rays, which do bend, according to curvature of
space. And curvature of space (and time) is relative to an
absolute realm, which doesn't exist in the physical world. So, no
matter where you stand, you cannot get a definition of absolute
(straight) time and space in the physical realm. That is why, from
the viewpoint of the Ideal Realm, it doesn't make sense. It is
like living in a fishbowl, or looking at the world through curved
eyeglasses. It is always warped. For the angels, that is very
clear. That is also why the angel is resentful, for "Why did You
put such a world above the Ideal Realm (and the spiritual world)"
which is where the angels live? Will it come back to normalcy?
When you make the real world resemble the ideal world. Make the
real world into the ideal world. (It never will be exactly.)

(11:18 pm 1997.10.2. WSS, I.T.P.N.)

P.S.

HF -- See, you live in one world, and I in another, but, see, we
can put them together. The ancients didn't think that, nor did the
Christians. Jesus did. And True Parents do.